Things are heating up in the "Valley of the Sun", at the venerable Phoenix Country Club to be exact... and this has nothing to do with the desert city's torrid temperatures.What's boiling over right now is a debate over sex segregation in the country club's dining rooms.
This scenario probably sounds familiar because over the past several years it's been an issue at many private golf and country clubs across the country and around the world: The Men Only area, and what to do about it.
Sometimes it's just a room, sometimes an actual restaurant or grill, but it's always a bastion for the boys, where girls are not allowed. The fact is, many clubs have them and, as private clubs, they've always been allowed to have them. Every now and then you'd read about a protest or a petition... or even a law suit being filed... in response to a segregation situation, but in the end these efforts often seemed to fizzle on the basis that private clubs are not in theory subject to antidiscrimination laws.
In Phoenix however, the plaintiffs and their supporters are pressing on, in the face of substantial sophomoric harassment. They want the Men's Grill (a well appointed bar and dining area overlooking the course) to be open to everyone, making the Womens Grill (a dingy, illappointed afterthought of a room) unnecessary.
Their efforts seem to be paying off too. A legal opinion was issued earlier this week, by the Attorney General's Civil Rights Division which determined that the country club had far too many events open to non-members to be considered a private club and therefore was subject to the state's anti-discrimination laws.
It's not over yet though, because the opinion is non-binding and club officials say they have no intention of changing the policy. They have initiated efforts to upgrade the Women's Grill to the standard of the Men's facility, but not to open the Men's Grill to women. The problem is compounded by the fact that though there is a nonsegregated restaurant at the club, it's not open at all times and the Men's Grill with it's wide screen televisions and pleasant appointments is where everyone wants to be after a round at PCC. It's where the bonding and business deals take place. So...where does that leave the business woman, or lawyer or physician when she's playing golf with a group of male colleagues? Not in a very good place I would imagine.
Sex segregation in the Grills might be a tradition that some
But for now it seems a judge may have to come in and have the final word. We'll be following this with interest.
I don't belong to a club. I golf a lot. I did work at a Country Club in HS back in the late 80's.
ReplyDeleteHere is what I would do if I were a woman in that club. You have to have the right personality to do this. You(female) and a friend(female)just go sit down in that grill. Demand to be served. I would say probably about 90% of the time the server will serve the women as they don't want to lose their job. Someone will protest when you walk in. This is where you need a good one-liner that you come back with that is something to the effect of kiss my a$$, but clever. It would also help to have a little dirt on a couple of the regulars. The women have to have that 'I don't take no sh*t attitude.'
The key to remember is it is easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.
NEVER fails - if men have an area to themselves, women will do anything and everything to make sure that it gets taken away - including law suits based on their own hypocritical ideas.
ReplyDeleteBUT - if women have or want a place to themselves, god help the men who even glance in the general direction of THEIR area. Women will file harrassment suits, or scream and cry to the media about "the mean ol' men" who won't let them have what they want.
Remember - it's the LPGA that has a gender discrimination clause - not the PGA Tour.
You want "democracy" ? You got it. The majority of the membership bills get paid by the men. Democracy is one "man" - one vote, so the majority wins. Oh wait - women want "democracy" (however they mis-define the word) as long as it fits their purposes, and when it doesn't, they want the imperial government to force the men to do what they want.
Nice - real nice.
this just proves again that private country clubs are the most backward, out of date organizations in the country.
ReplyDeletedid u know that tom watson "fired" his country club in kansas in the 70's (the one he grew up in with his family and that made him an honored member as his career took off) because they blocked jewish men from joining - watson's 1st wife was jewish and he was so offended by this policy that he left the club he grew up in and the "committee" let him go.
there are so many stories about private clubs discriminating on the basis of gender, race, religion, etc. it is disgusting that these clubs abuse the rights that so many in this country have fought for for over 200 years.
why do we rever augusta? why does tiger even go there? those shriveled up old farts are unamerican and set the example followed by private clubs all over the country.
i would never, ever join any such organization. why do so many americans consider belonging to racist, gender retarded, anti-semetic organizations a sign of status? they are not in any way bastions of the american way of life. they are simply homes for backwards thinking people who hate diversity and are trying to block the progress for which so many true americans have struggled. don't give me "their private" they can do what they want shit. augusta is a very public institution, hosting an international event - they represent america in this respect and i for one cringe every time one of their cracker members speaks to the public, shame on all of them! shame on the pga tour and all the players for buying into their anti-diversity negativity.
down with augusta, we don't need them. fire them, make the players tournament the 4th major. down with shoal creek.
this is the 21st century. obama is running for president. would the "lords of augusta" even let him in their grill room? would obama even want to go in? i hope not, he doesn't need their backward thinking ideals. "we" do not need them either!!!!!!
note to author: step off soap box and say good night.
Such a simple question. Private means private. Is privacy not a freedom still offered here? If the club is deemed "not private" through their activities, then by all means, go ahead with the lawsuits. If it is deemed private then some alternatives...
ReplyDelete1. Start your own private club. Exclude men.
2. Boycott the existing club and all of it's functions. Strongly encourage your husband to find a new club.
3. Stop whining.
4. Quit watching the Masters if you feel that indignant. If you carry any real numbers the TV ratings will take care of it. Ask Ms Burke how far she got.
5. Pickett the joint 24/7. If done legally I believe it's still a freedom.
6. Cut the PC crap and worry about something important.
-Bobbio
I agree with bobbio that private means private.
ReplyDeleteI can't stomach the idea of the government telling people who they have to associate with in a private club, no matter how distasteful the idea of discrimination is to me and no matter what group is being discriminated against. I don't have to like it, but there's nothing in the world that would make me want the government to stop it.
Bobbio and Double - we also have to agree with Anon 4:38 - these gender exclusive organizations are ALL backwards and must be shut down.
ReplyDeleteSO - let's start with the LPGA because they are gender exclusive. (I'm sure that most professional women's sports organizations are gender exclusive)
From there we can go line by line down the list of Martha Burk's National Council of Women's Organizations. After that, we can shut down women only gym's and spas. Oh, let's not forget the YWCA where men are only allowed as escorted guests.
That's just a partial list of "backwards" organizations that have got to go if Anon doesn't prove to be a huge hypocrite.
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ReplyDeleteWell, as GolfGirl points out, in today's economy the kind of sex segregation practiced at Phoenix CC is a luxury that most clubs can not afford. Nowadays almost all clubs are allowing outside groups to use their couses and clubhouses for functions and whats going to happen when those folks wander into the "Men's Only" area. Or if a mixed group decides they want to have a drink together after their round.
ReplyDeleteThey'll end up alienating their potential customers.
As far as rights go - the government has stuck its nose too far into private matters... by the logic in this ruling if a Masonic Lodge can hold public events then the whole place should be "public" (which will never happen)
ReplyDeleteAs far as segregated areas - why? I prefer mixed company myself :)
Oh hell, let the men have their space. They need it. If I am a business women trying to do business during golf then I can do it on the fairway or somewhere else. The golf club is not the only place I can woo a customer. ;-) And the women should take it upon themselves to spruce up their space at the club, right?
ReplyDeleteIs this really a burning issue? More likely, it's just another chapter in the story about how the New York Times can't give up on stories about golf and gender. Click here to read what Heather McDonald wrote about this issue at City Journal.
ReplyDeleteto all the "private" arguers.
ReplyDeletewhat about private corporations? they are "private" but are bound by anti-discrimatory laws because they offer services to the public, but so do most country clubs - augusta hosts a very public international event - most country clubs today rent out parts of their facilities to the public.
there qare also examples of organizations standing up to anti-discrimination - remember the pga tour and shoal creek? the tour wouldn't allow events at this racist facility because of the backwards thinking of its cracker membership.
sometimes the gov't has a need to step in. when private clubs with public faces abuse the under represented they need to answer for it. the gov't is the only entity empowered to do this. self regulation clearly does not work in these instances. the founding fathers understood this and instituted the "bill of rights" - and empowered the gov't to protect these rights!
who else can step in? ancient thinkers like bobbio, double eagle and court golf use age old racist arguments to resist what is right and they seem so pround of themselves - much like governor wallace and the alabama militia of the 1960's. you can call it "pc" if you want - i call it treating all americans with respect and dignity, regardless of background.
that is why i would never join such dinosaur clubs. they are filled with haters and name callers. those who fear anyone different from themselves. the policy's they employ are the archaic values of the prep school playgrounds of the 1950's. i believe in equality and diversity and i say the future is with me!
Great, let's have a party every night at your house then because you opened it to the public on Halloween. Be there at 7. What can I bring?
ReplyDeleteblob-bio
ReplyDeletenow your just being plain stupid because you have so little to say.
Lots of well articulated arguments ...on both sides.
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. I think it's an interesting issue, unlike Heather McDonald, who, in her piece for City Journal, deems discussion of the PCC situation narcissistic and elitist... and not worthy much, if any, ink.
Initially, I asked myself who these men were and what kind of stodgy, backwards world they must come out of to WANT to preserve the single sex dining area, but then I did some resarch and discovered tons of women-only gyms and women-only tours and women-only events. I had to acknowledge that the desire to be with ONLY members of ones OWN sex is as common among females as it is among males...though I certainly can't relate to it.
Though I love hanging out with girlfriends I have no desire to frequent a gym, go on a tour or attend an event that's exclusively female. However, many gals do... and, as the PCC incident shows, many guys like cafes where women aren't allowed. Go figure.
Though I personally think it's kind of primitive (in Teheran they just opened a women-only park) I don't really have a problem the Phoenix Country Club having the male-only Grill, and I do feel it's the responsibility of the women of the club to insist on an equal facility... or to walk right into the Men's domain (like the first commenter suggested) and call the guys out on their policy. I think the reason they've not gotten results in the past is because they've been trying to gently coax the public and the courts into handeling the issue, instead of addressing it themselves.
I do feel that the situation at PCC must be very awkward. It seems the majority of members both male and female feel the current policy is archaic, exclusionary and detrimental to business. However there are a couple of very powerful members who want to keep the Grill closed to women ... at all costs.
Yes, it will be interesting to see how this turns out and what kind of impact it has on such cases in the future. Because I'm pretty sure this won't be the last.
Curiously, at the site of this week's P.G.A. Tour event....
ReplyDelete"Congressional Country Club in Bethesda requires you get a recommendation from a congressman in order to be accepted."
Should I move my attorney to the 5 spot on my cell phone?
So much has already been said that I agree with there is no sense in rehashing. If it's up for a vote ,I vote that women should just let men have something of their own without trying to push their way in everywhere. Country clubs and smokers are mens last bastion.
ReplyDeleteWomen have even taken over the mens room at sporting events and sometimes even movies. Combat roles, no problem. They have made sure the men are even distracted on the field of combat.
Way to sit on the fence Patricia. Does your crack hurt?
ReplyDeleteCV 20O8 018660
ReplyDeleteA NEW LAWSUIT AGAINST THE PHOENIX COUNTRY CLUB CAN BE ACCESSED THROUGH THE MARICOPA SUPERIOR COURT PAGE.
MEMBERS ARE COMPLETELY FED UP WITH THE WAY THE BOARD HAS BEHAVED.
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