This is a topic I've written about before: Playing from the As I wrote last year, there seems to be an invisible
I also know a couple of ladies who clamor to "play from the tips with the guys" though they clearly don't have the distance. However, several studies confirm what we've all always suspected; women are far less likely to overestimate their distance when asked. Yep, basically, it's a guy thing. And while I have no problem with a little tee box overreach when the course isn't busy, it's quite annoying on a busy Sunday when Billy Backtees and his buddies allow their over-sized egos to sabotage the pace of play.
That's what we'll be talking about tonight on "Only Two Things". We'll be broadcasting from 9:30 - 10:30PM ET. And you can weigh in on-air by using call-in number 917-889-9592. Or join the conversation in the chat room or on Twitter... or just listen at BlogTalkRadio. Talk to you tonight.
I call "BS" on you, Patricia. I challenge you to produce these studies where women are found conclusively to "far less likely to over estimate distance." NAME YOUR SOURCES, I WANT TO SEE THEM. I think they don't exist and you made this up. You are officially on the clock to prove what you say is true. If there are "studies" that show men over estimate distance, I want you to show us where they are and who wrote them. Typically, your so-called "studies" are some of your dingbat friends from the grill room, the least reliable source. With nonsense like you spout, it's no wonder your comments ended up on the cutting room floor when you were at the TV stations.
ReplyDeleteDon't give me your tired, played out, swinging baloney about how you have to wait for guys playing from back tees, and how guys are so neanderthal, while women are angelic. That is one of the most blatantly sexist and disingenuous things you have ever written, in a career full of such garbage.
Are you a journalist or not? Then produce these studies...otherwise retract it, but it's high time you started to take responsibility for what you write...that or stop trying to BS us.
Jay Flemma
Sounds like you've got some anger issues Mr. Flemma.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I don't know about the studies but "Billy Backtees"... and his buddies... definitely do exist. They were playing in front of us on Saturday and it was a long, long afternoon. :-\
I'm an 11 handicap, and I proudly play the whites everywhere with one exception: I have to play blues for my league because "dem's the rules of the league".
ReplyDeleteI do get a chuckle out of "Billy Blacktees" who I've spotted on several occasions. It's only funny until they get in front of you and hold up play while they all look for golf balls 6 times a hole though.
As for over-estimating length, I see that all the time from men as well. "I hit it about 280" usually means more like "230". I occasionally measure some of my drives with my SkyCaddie, but for the most part don't really pay detailed attention to it. I get enough distance to get the job done, 'nuff said.
Careful Patricia, I suspect Jay Flemma might be an alias for Mel Gibson. ;)
ReplyDeleteI know one female friend who always insists she she's good enough to play from the tips, and she isn't. But I know about a dozen males with the same delusion. And one of them is me. ;)
One thing I can say with the certainty of 40 year of golf behind me is that most of the women I've played with have underestimated their distance and most of the men have overestimated theirs.
foursome of guys playing golf are all struck by lightening and killed
ReplyDeletest peter at the gate tells them there has been an awful mistake - the lightening strike was intended for the lawyers in the foursome behind them
as a concession GOD would send them back BUT they cannot go back as they were before so they have to pick another life
they ALL agree they want to return to earth as lesbians - that way they can play from the RED tees (and also look forward to having tons of lesbian sex)
frankD
ft liquordale FLA
I'm actually on the road today but will definitely look forward to discussing the "correct tee controversy" tonight on the show.
ReplyDeleteAs for the "name your sources challenge" Jay, there are myriad studies that indicate men tend to overestimate their abilities and attributes... in sports, in I.Q, in attractiveness... while women tend to underestimate theirs. One I can think of off-hand is the study that was so widely reported a couple of years ago comparing men's and women's actual I.Q. scores with what they estimated them to be. Men consistently overestimated while women consistently underestimated. I believe this due to to cultural conditioning, and I believe it applies on the golf course as well... with studies to back it up.
I think my original article referred (and linked) to a piece by NYT's Bill Pennington on this "red tee topic", and if I remember correctly it sited such surveys.
I promise I'll get more details for you when I get back to my desk later this afternoon, but keep in mind that for me this is a discussion and I'm open to all points of view on it.
As far as being a "journalist" I don't think I've ever claimed that title per se. My degree is in corporate communications and I'm very comfortable considering myself A) a blogger... because I have a blog... and B) a writer because I have a passion for the written word AND my book was published by Abrams, a respected major publisher.
Clearly Jay, media is in a state of radical transformation right now. The definitions are changing. If the traditional definition of journalist applies... ie. the one that says journalists must be completely unbiased and and be able to cite 3 sources before publishing an article... then many/most who call themselves journalists these days are not being accurate.
Till later...
Frank - the joke is admittedly funny but the disturbing part that so many guys really think that way. :0
ReplyDeleteJay - I'd be curious to know: who are some of the golf journalists you admire?
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ReplyDeletedear jay flemma
well, if you are the same jay flemma i got into it with over at golfclubatlas - over an issue with one "Bradley S "BS" Klein", whom i refer to as king klein - that would certainly explain your above post
talk about B S ? ! ?
i can remind you of B S on "B S" Klein allright, but you'll be sorry if you get me started on that again
even doak and tommy "the emperor" nac agreed, but let's not go there if you aren't the same dude
anyway be well
frankD
ft lauderdale, FLA
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ReplyDeletepatricia,
if this guy tells me he supported bradley s klein in my argument with him on golfclubatlas, well, jay will need a new definition of JOURNALIST himself
i'll keep my powder dry until i hear back from jay
otherwise, have a great show !
frankD
ft lauderdale, SoFla
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ReplyDeleteLisaS
all the guys i know think that way
for some men, isn't it ironic that homosexual relations between two men is like mixing good whiskey and spoiled milk together, but for those same men, homosexual relations between two women is, well, is utopia !
man to man: what's the best thing a girlfriend could bring to bed with her ? HER GIRLFRIEND ! - no ?
anyway be well
frankD
ft liquordale
I agree with the picture painted in Jay's comment of certain women who are perpetual victims, accusing men of being careless and exclusionary while not seeing same in themselves. However, I definitely don't see that in you Patricia.
ReplyDeleteJay, I believe you "doth protest too much..." and I wonder from where that anger comes. While I understand your point of wanting to see quotable references, the following is my observation after 25 years of play.
ReplyDeleteI see over 50% (this is the Allman study) at a bare minimum of men who play from the blue tees when it's obvious that they're 20+ handicap does call for that and one that definitely makes the course play longer (time wise) for them and all players that follow that foursome. I am guilty of this and most of my friends are as well. Conversely I have NEVER (again from the Allman Study) seen a woman move to the set of further tees, NEVER. I do see women players not pick up after say 8 strokes on a hole but that's another "fight' you can take on at a later date. Ok... that's my two cents
Of course, it could be asked why women who have the ability to play further back never do. Never any thought of pushing themselves to improve, or to find out what they need to do to play further back.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that there are way too many guys who play too far back for their abilities, most of the women I see on the course never push themselves to improve so they can get off the shortest tees on th course.
Have to agree with Jay - where are these "studies" ?
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ReplyDeleteAND THIS JUST IN......A STUDY TODAY REPORTS THAT 87% OF ALL STATISTICS ARE MADE-UP ON THE SPOT......JUST KIDDING L O L
anyway be well all
frankD
ft lauderdale, FLA
Patricia, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"Studies confirm what we've all always suspected; women are far less likely to overestimate their distance when asked."
I have to agree with Jay on what he said. You don't quote a study, but a news article that says no such thing. You really should be more precise or cite things or link out. Otherwise, it might look like you just shot from the hip without anything to back it up.
I don't agree, however, with the way Jay said it. (Unless you two have been going round and round for some time and I don't know it). if it's a one time thing, give her a pass, but Patricia, if you don't have these "studies" you should be more careful throwing men under the bus. You do have a habit of doing that a lot, you never seem to be flattering about them except if they are handsome or dress well.
Bobby
Lisa:
ReplyDeleteDan Jenkins, Marino Parascenzo, Art Spander, John Garrity, Gary Van Sickle, Doug Ferguson, and Hank Gola are a few.
Jay
I think the I.Q. study Patricia refers to in her comments is the done by Adrian Furnham, a Psychology Professor at London's University Col-
ReplyDeletelege. He actually takes the results of numerous studies and they clearly indicate that men overestimate their intelligence and women underestimate their intelligenc. When you read the details you really see the pattern of Men being very confident and women lacking confidence.
I'm hoping that as society opens up to women they'll quickly gain confidence... without however becoming delusional.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3321841/Men-think-theyre-cleverer-claims-psychologist.html
There's a name for what you're talking about. It's called the "male hubris/female humility effect".
ReplyDeleteThe thing is though, men are held to a much higher standard than women. A woman can hit a really horrid shot from anywhere and gereraly it willjust be chucked At. Where as a man hits a bad shot. And is looked at with contempt especially were he to hit from a red tee.
ReplyDeleteI want to my handicap to be as low as possible AND I want to play from as far back as I can. I may not win many trophies this way, but I want to be the best golfer I can be. Call me crazy.
ReplyDeleteBTW, my golfing gal pals and I already have a date with the tips later this fall—when the course is quiet—just for fun.
I typically play the whites, occasionally the blues, which are only about 300 yards more at my course. I'll quit before I play the reds or golds.
ReplyDeleteIt's true, most men overestimate their drives. A study was done on a public course in FL on a hole with a super wide fairway. Guys were asked to estimate the distance of their drives after they hit. As I recall they were on average about 50 yards optimistic.
My only gripe with "some" women golfers is their habit of traveling together in a 4 pack to each other's balls to kibitz and share the moment as that member of the posse hit her shot.
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ReplyDeletewell since my inquiry of Mr Flemma can immediately after Lisa's query i guess either Jay ran out of time or ran out of here
which, as i suspected, answered my question by not responding to it
anyway be well
frankD
ft lauderdale
Ummm - Heather - we already call you crazy. :-)
ReplyDeleteHaving a low handicap isn't always a good thing. Sooner or later, you're going to be playing tournaments that don't just automatically put you on the forward tees. Playing further back will force you to reach further back for distance.
You know about this stuff from your days when you wanted to go from that triple to a quad. ;-) You had to figure out how to get stronger to jump higher and spin faster. Same thing here.
Short tees are great - they help teach you how to score with the wedges and play well inside themselves. But you don't get better without stretching and pushing the envelope.
Jay, stop playing the Back tees, you are holding up play... this is almost so obvious it shouldn't require discussion. Ever heard the term "drive for show....putt for dough..?" Thats a guy thing. Certainly I know some women who want to beat men, but most women would rather play golf and compete with other women. Men on the other hand love to beat other men and beat them soundly. Its in our nature. And the bigger the weapon the better. Back tees are just bigger swords. Back tees produce more blood. Back tees punish the weak. For the inexperienced player, death from the "tips" is a scary thought, but a challange that must be taken. And, the more danger, the more cautious...slowing the pace of their own demise. Yes Back tees for those who take the challenge with dull weaponry obviously will slow play for others. And its not fun to watch.
ReplyDeleteDan in Scottsdale
Patricia has a unique voice and a definite talent for writing, provoking discussion, and promoting the game of golf as well as her brand. She has been a steady, dependable source of fresh content since she joined us on the blogging scene. And, like she said, I don't think she ever claimed the title of "journalist."
ReplyDeleteI do think if bloggers make statements referencing studies (de facto journalism within a blog post?), they have a responsibility to cite them and I agree that she should.
However, I'm here to defend Patricia against Jay's use of the phrase "career full of such garbage." I think Patricia has a lot of interesting things to say and has kept true to her brand and marketing strategy with a consistent theme. Fashion and style are important at The Golf Girl's Diary which is why you see positive comments about men in that regard. I believe part of Patricia's mission is to bring more women to the sport, and perhaps their "angelic" portrayal works to that end. No one's opinions will always be agreed upon across the board, but I never thought hers were "baloney."
I agree that references to studies should include citation (even if that study was with friends in the grill room), in order to maintain integrity whether you're any combination of blogger, writer, journalist. And Jay - calling someone out is one thing. Calling them names is another. I know you have higher standards than that.
Kristen
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ReplyDeletekristen,
i agree with your sentiment, and would add that it is no surprise to me that mr flemma has an agenda and a specific reason to request footnotes to reference every cited study
if there ever was a sport with various "studies" it is golf
from the grass, to the equipment, to the physical aspects, and yes, also the gender issues, volumns have been written on each and every matter of minutae
for example, my dingbat friends of the grill room frequently come up with gems, and are very reliable sources, but i wait until the statute-of-limitations runs out before i cite any of them
i would suspect mr flemma has many other things to do with his time so i guess this will blow over
anyway be well
frankD
ft lauderdale
A couple of things: I've been reading this blog for years because it's intelligent and well written and because it covers so many different aspects of the game in a unique voice that's light-hearted and entertaining. Patricia covers international golf stories that others ignore as well as the big stories like Tiger woods with a unique perspective and voice. She writes with a lot of humor but is never mean spirited or snarky like Mr. Flemma and others.
ReplyDeleteTo what Bobby said, Patricia consistently links to her sources and the articles she linked to by Bill Pennington refers to exactly what she was talking about. Furthermore Bobby, you made the most inaccurate statement in this entire conversation when you said that Patricia "never seem(s) to be flattering about them (men) except if they are handsome or dress well".
ReplyDeleteWhen everyone else is making sarcastic remarks about players who are short, overweight or perceived as unattractive it's always been Patricia who writes about their great qualities. Read her stories about Tim Clark, Brenden DeJonge, John Daly and many others.
This blog is as popular as it is for a reason. I think I know what going on with some of these comments, it's called jealousy.
Patricia, I thought the participants on this subject might find this article from Brent Kelly's About.com Golf of interest;
ReplyDelete"...many amateur golfers (especially men) try to play from tees that are too long. It's not uncommon to see a group of guys teeing off from the championship tees, only to hit weak slices into the woods....And golfers who play from tees that are too long for their games are only slowing down the pace of play.
http://golf.about.com/od/beginners/f/bfaq_whichtees.htm?nl=1